How about selective extroversion. I am extrovert with friends and a good presenter, but they keep having work parties and barbecues here I just don’t want to go to. Like- guys, I appreciate you all, but I just want to know if you are competent and have a quiet chat at lunch time, I have other friends with whom I rather spend my time during non-work hours. Like, you have to dress up (carnival type) for the Christmas party, for crying out loud… needless to say that in 10 years I’ve been here I have not attended one single one of them.
I feel this about selective extroversion - my friends laugh at how I am borderline dancing on tables and doing cartwheels in company I like, but elsewhere I am Grumpy cat with my Slavic resting bitchface.
And a million times this - there is this huge, expansive life outside of work, I don’t want to form any connections unless there is electricity and a real click (which is rare and a treasure).
I worked at a large company where they were crazy with the corporate parties, scripting them etc, wtf, one of the reasons I left. I felt the place constantly wanted you up on a stool reciting fervent poems and odes to the corporation, some bizarre mashup of communist capitalism.
Oh that's so very true, I had to take some random jobs in here, and one of them was being a saleslady in some luxury department store, omg, how it reminded me of Soviet Union, with "летучки" and speeches and even some weird competition in each department, which by the way didn't make any sense as it all was sheer luck-based, -people buy here heaps of stuff then return it very easily (was pre-internet shopping times, yet most behaved just the same), so when you're the one accepting the return the sum goes off your sales' number.
It was fascinating though in a way, like reading Arthur Hailey "Airport" or "Hotel", that department store; these types of jobes often leave you with the best anecdotes.
I am reading «Одноэтажная Америка» right now and it is fascinating, incredible how precise the observations are and how it is exactly the same now (it was written in 1935-6!!). I think the book is respectful and written with a certain tenderness towards the country, sometimes it feels like the authors are quite charmed by it.
Seeing this is so affirming for me. My family immigrated to canada from eastern europe when i was 8. Although i was still young and malleable, I've felt this disconnect between me/my family and the new environment we were in. I was very much the shy kid until I learned to be extroverted. Friendship has a sacred aura for me, but I can't say the number of times where my "friends" latched on and then off without warning. This is terrifying. You think you can trust someone with your soul and then they leave because you don't want to do the same activities. Friendships here are heavily based on a certain materiality, like if you can't help them by giving them the experiences they seek they'll drop you. Quite impersonal. I've spoken to europeans and they said they had an issue with the way people made friends here, especially because of the superficiality. I consider myself to have learned and adopted the necessary conversation skills to be favoured in this society, but it wasn't without much effort and many years of hating myself.
Sandra thank you for your comment and so many things you say are recognisable for me too, especially the attitude to friendship! Countless times I’ve felt like such an idiot when people try to get into your soul with questions and conversation and I think it is a real conversation, only to later realise they want something from you and it’s just a scripted sort of interaction.
I lived abroad for a long time as a child with my family as well, but it was in Western Europe and it was easy, no one in the family felt any particular culture shock regarding socialisation. Moving here as an adult, I’ve tried to learn and adopt the skills, like you write, but it feels forced and unnatural.
I empathise deeply with you as a fellow shy kid having to reformat yourself!
Yes! When I feel forced to form relationships, I’m less likely to be able to do so. One of the schools I taught in had a very extrovert culture. Not only were there a lot of early morning meetings (which I despise….I like a calm predictable morning routine) but there was party music blaring, dress-up themes, and “team building activities” 🤮 Non-instructional days were jammed with more team building and professional learning that somebody else invented. Worse, a lot of people seemed to be gaining status points by supporting this culture, leaving me no one to even grumble about it with (which might have blown off steam). I responded by become more weird, withdrawn and resentful, and guilty about it: why could I not have fun like everyone else seemed to be having! I can see how this culture might create a sense of belonging in some people, as it surely was intended, but for me it was way too much, all the time. I was moved to another school following my second mat leave and it was such a relief.
Oh Lord, the team building. I know what you mean - I came across this, when things where organised on weekends (!!) and there was huge pressure to attend. For me, this crosses all boundaries. Or people sitting around after work hours to demonstrate supposed loyalty or busyness. I really love the straightforwardness of contract work and freelance, when you deliver things for money, no stupid frills and busy work.
Good thing you got to move to another place!
I found it much more pleasant to work at smaller companies, they’re not as robotic and cult-like.
I think in the US the situation with healthcare is so unique to anything in the developed or even developing world that people are often hostages to these jobs with idiotic cultures and demands. The fear of losing the jobs is catastrophic because then you cannot have medical care. I never felt this back in Moscow because there was always another job out there and I’m not a serf to be trampled over and have to deal with obnoxious demands. Friends I talk to there still generally feel like this. But I understand how here this can be crushing and option-less sometimes.
The concept of playdates was very strange to me -I realized of course it stems from external impositions, because one needs to drive somewhere more often rather then walk, to get even to some playground unless they live in a big city, or maybe somewhere rural. And kids are- I guess it's different in every state, but in the ones I lived- not to stay without adult supervision until they're 12. Then probably some Cinderella-like miracle happens when clock strikes midnight on the day they turn 12, because then they suddenly not only are allowed to be alone, but can babysit.
Needless to say it's really really different from what I was used to, in my own childhood, and early childhood of my kids in another country.
My younger one was especially popular here, and it was constant playdates, and other parents would tell us "we'll bring him ourselves, or you can come get him whenever even if late", and all that jazz, I suspect he had some mollifying influence on others.
I hate fundraisers, or any such social functions, and mingling; now I don't need to participate in any, for better for worse, but then I felt super weird and awkward, until I discovered that having some wine immediately helps somewhat. I can't drink a lot, so these several sips helped me to withstand all them functions throughout, granted I probably said silly things too, but what does it matter when people just come and go like in some marionette theater where you don't like the play?
Of course if I felt close to them maybe it'd be different; but how one feels close to a couple hundred of people?
Ok I feel my comment is too long; just to say that I've no idea whether you follow @Nolan Yuma, but if you dont: check out his Substack as he writes a lot about cultural differences, quite fascinating. He has a very diverse background himself, travels a lot, and is a good writer, really funny at times as well.
Oh Chen Rafaeli, thank you for your душевный comment! This was me re: alcohol too at obligatory events, feeling like I have to entertain shine and sparkle and at the same time thinking, who is this person, this isn’t even me.
I got my maximum load of playdates in NYC, where playgrounds and a huge park where right there, so it was just wtf to me why anyone would hang out in the railroad apartments (I’m big on outdoor play whenever possible). And you are so right about the suburbs and needing to drive everywhere, and not letting the child have any autonomy. Even in NYC, when mine would run ahead and stop before a light - within one quiet block - at age six or so, people would descend on him with “where are your parents”.
I talk to my friends in Moscow, Paris, with kids younger than mine who are out on their own, hanging out in the city, talking public transport and so on and feel like mine is growing up in such an unnatural environment with zero basic navigation and independence.
About playdates I sometimes feel like it’s renting out my child as entertainment.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will check him out!
Ahaah good to see you online again! I'm all holed up with a nasty broken ankle here in Istanbul, but would love to grab the moment to heartily agree in general with everything you are observing (esp re "treating" introversion or at least the lack of urge to be some sort of "Guy Smiley" all the time)...But ESPECIALLY agree with you about how the sort of forced "play date" idea with kids is the absolute worst. Like training kids from an early age to become accustomed to never having some alone time with themselves and their mothers (or fine, fathers), and good Lord anyway, why would someone immediately want to do that after school anyway? I've always seen home and coming from school as being a respite from the horrendous social overload that the mere presence of "others" around us can cause. Anyway, a bit off topic maybe, but just wanted to register my general agreement with you!
Thank you and happy to see you too, have been checking recently if you posted anything, I look forward to reading! I hope the ankle heals asap!
My child is more of an ambivert I think, or at least a much lesser introvert than me, but even with him it was obvious how psychologically tired he was after school. If I had been scheduled for child speed dates everyday after school I would have ended up in a neurosis clinic.
And exactly as you say - this is my child that I enjoy and that I want to spend time with and raise, not outsource him to strangers for nearly all waking hours.
And the scheduling around this and sports events is a huge imposition on the parents’ lives too, as if adults don’t have their own.
I love it when Communication Science is properly used. Ugh Context was a complicated thing to explain to my future husband and I was struggling with real world application, thank you so much!
I live in a much more rural/agricultural part of the US, and honestly, it's a lot less intense than corporate. It's probably still more extroverted, but not to the extreme here, at least in my experience
What resonated with me especially in this piece were Meyer's observations. When I lived stateside, I found this extraversion grating mostly because it felt unnatural and performative. The laughter you described in meeting rooms often rang empty for me, because what is laughter without a bit of soul in it anyway? It felt like people were being so chatty due to enforced social norms- and the faked chattiness would lead to faux social acceptance. I think in non-Anglo Saxon contexts people just assume there are others who are grumpy, or sad, or lost their phone on the metro and should not be messed with. It feels more real that way because if you are laughing together, for two seconds that day the sun probably reached your heart. As usual, enjoyed this piece, as it gave me some food for thought. 🌞
Her book had so many “aha!” moments for me for things you notice, but think they’re just anecdotal tidbits in your life or an intuitive feeling you have, and then it turns out it's a pattern/phenomenon.
The faux friendliness and chirpiness makes me feel uneasy, like there is a Joker vibe to it. No real aspect is ever shown - like you said grumpy, or shit day, or funny sarcastic descriptions of things. I really enjoy people with a sense of humor, who just come out with anything, not saying sterilised things slick as a duck’s back, God forbid something doesn’t roll off.
How about selective extroversion. I am extrovert with friends and a good presenter, but they keep having work parties and barbecues here I just don’t want to go to. Like- guys, I appreciate you all, but I just want to know if you are competent and have a quiet chat at lunch time, I have other friends with whom I rather spend my time during non-work hours. Like, you have to dress up (carnival type) for the Christmas party, for crying out loud… needless to say that in 10 years I’ve been here I have not attended one single one of them.
I feel this about selective extroversion - my friends laugh at how I am borderline dancing on tables and doing cartwheels in company I like, but elsewhere I am Grumpy cat with my Slavic resting bitchface.
And a million times this - there is this huge, expansive life outside of work, I don’t want to form any connections unless there is electricity and a real click (which is rare and a treasure).
I worked at a large company where they were crazy with the corporate parties, scripting them etc, wtf, one of the reasons I left. I felt the place constantly wanted you up on a stool reciting fervent poems and odes to the corporation, some bizarre mashup of communist capitalism.
Oh that's so very true, I had to take some random jobs in here, and one of them was being a saleslady in some luxury department store, omg, how it reminded me of Soviet Union, with "летучки" and speeches and even some weird competition in each department, which by the way didn't make any sense as it all was sheer luck-based, -people buy here heaps of stuff then return it very easily (was pre-internet shopping times, yet most behaved just the same), so when you're the one accepting the return the sum goes off your sales' number.
It was fascinating though in a way, like reading Arthur Hailey "Airport" or "Hotel", that department store; these types of jobes often leave you with the best anecdotes.
I am reading «Одноэтажная Америка» right now and it is fascinating, incredible how precise the observations are and how it is exactly the same now (it was written in 1935-6!!). I think the book is respectful and written with a certain tenderness towards the country, sometimes it feels like the authors are quite charmed by it.
Seeing this is so affirming for me. My family immigrated to canada from eastern europe when i was 8. Although i was still young and malleable, I've felt this disconnect between me/my family and the new environment we were in. I was very much the shy kid until I learned to be extroverted. Friendship has a sacred aura for me, but I can't say the number of times where my "friends" latched on and then off without warning. This is terrifying. You think you can trust someone with your soul and then they leave because you don't want to do the same activities. Friendships here are heavily based on a certain materiality, like if you can't help them by giving them the experiences they seek they'll drop you. Quite impersonal. I've spoken to europeans and they said they had an issue with the way people made friends here, especially because of the superficiality. I consider myself to have learned and adopted the necessary conversation skills to be favoured in this society, but it wasn't without much effort and many years of hating myself.
Sandra thank you for your comment and so many things you say are recognisable for me too, especially the attitude to friendship! Countless times I’ve felt like such an idiot when people try to get into your soul with questions and conversation and I think it is a real conversation, only to later realise they want something from you and it’s just a scripted sort of interaction.
I lived abroad for a long time as a child with my family as well, but it was in Western Europe and it was easy, no one in the family felt any particular culture shock regarding socialisation. Moving here as an adult, I’ve tried to learn and adopt the skills, like you write, but it feels forced and unnatural.
I empathise deeply with you as a fellow shy kid having to reformat yourself!
Yes! When I feel forced to form relationships, I’m less likely to be able to do so. One of the schools I taught in had a very extrovert culture. Not only were there a lot of early morning meetings (which I despise….I like a calm predictable morning routine) but there was party music blaring, dress-up themes, and “team building activities” 🤮 Non-instructional days were jammed with more team building and professional learning that somebody else invented. Worse, a lot of people seemed to be gaining status points by supporting this culture, leaving me no one to even grumble about it with (which might have blown off steam). I responded by become more weird, withdrawn and resentful, and guilty about it: why could I not have fun like everyone else seemed to be having! I can see how this culture might create a sense of belonging in some people, as it surely was intended, but for me it was way too much, all the time. I was moved to another school following my second mat leave and it was such a relief.
Oh Lord, the team building. I know what you mean - I came across this, when things where organised on weekends (!!) and there was huge pressure to attend. For me, this crosses all boundaries. Or people sitting around after work hours to demonstrate supposed loyalty or busyness. I really love the straightforwardness of contract work and freelance, when you deliver things for money, no stupid frills and busy work.
Good thing you got to move to another place!
I found it much more pleasant to work at smaller companies, they’re not as robotic and cult-like.
I think in the US the situation with healthcare is so unique to anything in the developed or even developing world that people are often hostages to these jobs with idiotic cultures and demands. The fear of losing the jobs is catastrophic because then you cannot have medical care. I never felt this back in Moscow because there was always another job out there and I’m not a serf to be trampled over and have to deal with obnoxious demands. Friends I talk to there still generally feel like this. But I understand how here this can be crushing and option-less sometimes.
The concept of playdates was very strange to me -I realized of course it stems from external impositions, because one needs to drive somewhere more often rather then walk, to get even to some playground unless they live in a big city, or maybe somewhere rural. And kids are- I guess it's different in every state, but in the ones I lived- not to stay without adult supervision until they're 12. Then probably some Cinderella-like miracle happens when clock strikes midnight on the day they turn 12, because then they suddenly not only are allowed to be alone, but can babysit.
Needless to say it's really really different from what I was used to, in my own childhood, and early childhood of my kids in another country.
My younger one was especially popular here, and it was constant playdates, and other parents would tell us "we'll bring him ourselves, or you can come get him whenever even if late", and all that jazz, I suspect he had some mollifying influence on others.
I hate fundraisers, or any such social functions, and mingling; now I don't need to participate in any, for better for worse, but then I felt super weird and awkward, until I discovered that having some wine immediately helps somewhat. I can't drink a lot, so these several sips helped me to withstand all them functions throughout, granted I probably said silly things too, but what does it matter when people just come and go like in some marionette theater where you don't like the play?
Of course if I felt close to them maybe it'd be different; but how one feels close to a couple hundred of people?
Ok I feel my comment is too long; just to say that I've no idea whether you follow @Nolan Yuma, but if you dont: check out his Substack as he writes a lot about cultural differences, quite fascinating. He has a very diverse background himself, travels a lot, and is a good writer, really funny at times as well.
Thank you for the essay!
Oh Chen Rafaeli, thank you for your душевный comment! This was me re: alcohol too at obligatory events, feeling like I have to entertain shine and sparkle and at the same time thinking, who is this person, this isn’t even me.
I got my maximum load of playdates in NYC, where playgrounds and a huge park where right there, so it was just wtf to me why anyone would hang out in the railroad apartments (I’m big on outdoor play whenever possible). And you are so right about the suburbs and needing to drive everywhere, and not letting the child have any autonomy. Even in NYC, when mine would run ahead and stop before a light - within one quiet block - at age six or so, people would descend on him with “where are your parents”.
I talk to my friends in Moscow, Paris, with kids younger than mine who are out on their own, hanging out in the city, talking public transport and so on and feel like mine is growing up in such an unnatural environment with zero basic navigation and independence.
About playdates I sometimes feel like it’s renting out my child as entertainment.
Thank you for the suggestion, I will check him out!
💕
Ahaah good to see you online again! I'm all holed up with a nasty broken ankle here in Istanbul, but would love to grab the moment to heartily agree in general with everything you are observing (esp re "treating" introversion or at least the lack of urge to be some sort of "Guy Smiley" all the time)...But ESPECIALLY agree with you about how the sort of forced "play date" idea with kids is the absolute worst. Like training kids from an early age to become accustomed to never having some alone time with themselves and their mothers (or fine, fathers), and good Lord anyway, why would someone immediately want to do that after school anyway? I've always seen home and coming from school as being a respite from the horrendous social overload that the mere presence of "others" around us can cause. Anyway, a bit off topic maybe, but just wanted to register my general agreement with you!
Thank you and happy to see you too, have been checking recently if you posted anything, I look forward to reading! I hope the ankle heals asap!
My child is more of an ambivert I think, or at least a much lesser introvert than me, but even with him it was obvious how psychologically tired he was after school. If I had been scheduled for child speed dates everyday after school I would have ended up in a neurosis clinic.
And exactly as you say - this is my child that I enjoy and that I want to spend time with and raise, not outsource him to strangers for nearly all waking hours.
And the scheduling around this and sports events is a huge imposition on the parents’ lives too, as if adults don’t have their own.
I love it when Communication Science is properly used. Ugh Context was a complicated thing to explain to my future husband and I was struggling with real world application, thank you so much!
Thank you! Communication Science is such a fascinating field of study. I wish I’d been more exposed to it in university.
I live in a much more rural/agricultural part of the US, and honestly, it's a lot less intense than corporate. It's probably still more extroverted, but not to the extreme here, at least in my experience
I’m glad this exists! In the Tristate area it seems to seep into all kinds of interactions, from parents mixing to random cultural events.
Maybe like smaller companies being saner, so are smaller cities sometimes.
What resonated with me especially in this piece were Meyer's observations. When I lived stateside, I found this extraversion grating mostly because it felt unnatural and performative. The laughter you described in meeting rooms often rang empty for me, because what is laughter without a bit of soul in it anyway? It felt like people were being so chatty due to enforced social norms- and the faked chattiness would lead to faux social acceptance. I think in non-Anglo Saxon contexts people just assume there are others who are grumpy, or sad, or lost their phone on the metro and should not be messed with. It feels more real that way because if you are laughing together, for two seconds that day the sun probably reached your heart. As usual, enjoyed this piece, as it gave me some food for thought. 🌞
Her book had so many “aha!” moments for me for things you notice, but think they’re just anecdotal tidbits in your life or an intuitive feeling you have, and then it turns out it's a pattern/phenomenon.
The faux friendliness and chirpiness makes me feel uneasy, like there is a Joker vibe to it. No real aspect is ever shown - like you said grumpy, or shit day, or funny sarcastic descriptions of things. I really enjoy people with a sense of humor, who just come out with anything, not saying sterilised things slick as a duck’s back, God forbid something doesn’t roll off.